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THJ apology thread
#41
(01-05-2021, 08:21 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: THJ has a whole career you can look at. I have seen enough btwn this year and last year to make my own conclusions. I was pro-THJ last year and I do think he will settle into a good year here. But he's a guy you need to upgrade. Powell you can't really upgrade, I think J Rich is a much better fit as a true 3D guy next to Luka. And J Rich doesn't have to shoot well every night to have an impact. Nights when THJ isn't shooting well he is garbage. I like that you are indignant in defense of THJ the night after he goes 8/10 but lets see you come here and defense him the next time he goes 1/9. I don't think we will have to wait that long, especially with KP out. Again my position isn't that we shouldn't play THJ at all, its that he is the guy to upgrade on this roster. Mavs need a true playmaker/scorer in that spot to get to the next level.

You will notice that I have questioned the anti THJ agenda since the beginning of the season but always pointed out his bad team defense. No one was as hard on Richardson when he went 1/10 against the Hornets or 5/14 against the Bulls. In fact in the same game the entire board was going off on THJ. Meanwhile Richardson was happily bricking just as badly. Right now it just feels like he is the new shinny toy. THJ on the other hand is what he always has been. A good but streaky shooter. I just think it is really telling that we have multiple pages of THJ bashing after a bad game from him and a short "well finally he did something good" after a great game.

I expect Richardson to improve and overall I think he is the better player but based on everything we have seen I just don´t agree with the anti THJ agenda. It feels like every single time the Mavs are struggling it is THJs or Powells fault. That´s just lazy.

It would be more interesting to figure out why the Luka-Richardson duo is not working as good as we all thought prior to the season. Or why the team as a whole (except for Maxi and THJ) is shooting as badly. Why Richardson hasn´t shown any of his playmaking skills.
Personally I  see a lot of similarities to Delon Wright last year. Richardson hasn´t figured out his role in RCs offense and cannot find a rhythm. Sometimes he is overly agressive. Sometimes he refuses to shoot. Difference is that Richardson is simply more talented than Wright. This time it is worth it to go through some growing pains and hope that he finds his role. 

THJ on the other hand is playing as expected and I think a willing shooter that pulls the trigger on any catch and shoot opportunity is really important for Luka. The Mavs offense is not looking good when Luka is surrounded by 3-4 guys that aren´t willing to shoot. The Mavs need someone that can take 12-15 FGA, 5-10 3s per game. Especially as long as KP is out.
I also don´t think it will be easy to replace THJs production. Shooting is pricy and there aren´t a lot of guys that can match his volume/percentages.
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#42
Want to make sure we don't lose this thread so that @dirkfansince1998 can remind us how great THJ is after he goes 3 for 11 and doesn't play down the stretch. Clearly Rick would rather J Rich play 41 minutes to THJ's 25 minutes bc he understands that J Rich brings more to the table. J Rich did not have an amazing offensive game but he played tough defense on Jamal Murray who is hard to contain. This is a pretty obvious and conventional opinion (that is that J Rich is better than THJ) but you can go on acting like THJ is better. Please go ahead.


#43
(01-08-2021, 05:49 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Want to make sure we don't lose this thread so that @dirkfansince1998 can remind us how great THJ is after he goes 3 for 11 and doesn't play down the stretch. Clearly Rick would rather J Rich play 41 minutes to THJ's 25 minutes bc he understands that J Rich brings more to the table. J Rich did not have an amazing offensive game but he played tough defense on Jamal Murray who is hard to contain. This is a pretty obvious and conventional opinion (that is that J Rich is better than THJ) but you can go on acting like THJ is better. Please go ahead.

Can tell that you did not watch the game. Sometimes it is better not to post if that´s the case.
Richardson struggling on offense was the biggest reason why the Mavs were down early in the game. He was 0/7 in the first half. Looking like prime Tony Allen. His defense was incredible but that´s not helping when he is still a net negative because of his offense.
THJ was struggling as well but he played good defense and lead the comeback in the 3rd quarter (when Richardson was on the bench). Not to say that he was any better or worse overall. I think both had mediocre games. 

Also: I expect Richardson to improve and overall I think he is the better player but based on everything we have seen I just don´t agree with the anti THJ agenda. It feels like every single time the Mavs are struggling it is THJs or Powells fault. That´s just lazy.

That´s me in the post right above yours. You either cannot read or want to attack me for other reasons. if that´s the case I really can´t help you.


#44
Well Rick disagrees with you and I agree with coach. 

THJ will get a chance to start with Rich and DFS out. I actually think he will do better without Rich. I could see Burke and THJ getting the start next to Maxi and DFS assuming KP is not back next game.


#45
(01-08-2021, 09:07 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Well Rick disagrees with you and I agree with coach. 

THJ will get a chance to start with Rich and DFS out. I actually think he will do better without Rich. I could see Burke and THJ getting the start next to Maxi and DFS assuming KP is not back next game.

Don´t get what you are saying. I think RC is doing a great job. Including THJs bench role.


#46
All I am saying is that Rich is better than THJ which is obvious. Second is that THJ is a player we neesld to upgrade at the TDL or summer. That's it. I don't hate THJ, I am not in love with his game. Hopefully he can step up now.


#47
Better join the hype train right now. At some point he is going to cool down again.


#48
I would be in favor of an extension for THJ at this point. He's shown enough to prove that last season was not a fluke. Yes, he'll be somewhat inconsistent from game to game. But if he's willing to come off the bench and understands that he won't always be on the floor during crunch time, I think it's worth locking him up. He's currently the only guy on the roster who can fill it up from deep on high volume.

The player who I would have liked to replace THJ with was OPJ. However, his defense hasn't been very impressive so far. I don't think he's going to be the 2-way SF that everyone is looking for. The rest of the free agent class is not that great either. Maybe a Lowry or Conley could be a difference maker, but they aren't going to be playing at a high level for much longer.

I would shoot for something around $16M a year for 3 years. Memories of the Powell extension do still make me a little hesitant, but I think this one will work out much better barring major injury. THJ may even have more trade value post-extension than he does right now as an expiring contract.
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#49
(01-09-2021, 11:14 PM)loki Wrote: I would be in favor of an extension for THJ at this point.


I don’t like the combo of Luka, Richardson and Hardaway. If THJ is ok with coming off of the bench and keeps playing this well, I’m all about keeping him.
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#50
(01-09-2021, 11:14 PM)loki Wrote: I would shoot for something around $16M a year for 3 years. 

Do you realize we got similar production in the same game from another player for 13 million$ less? And Burke is better off the dribble. 4 inches of additional length shouldn't cost that much. 

I am all for keeping Tim as the sixth man, but for not more than 10 million$/year. JRich should fill his previous role as Tim is not more than a spot up shooter as a scorer anyway.
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#51
An extension for THJ would be a big overpay. Better to either trade him or bet that you are going to get a team friendly deal in the summer. If he has a great season tho then someone will overpay. That's why I'd still rather trade him if given the chance.
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#52
(01-09-2021, 11:29 PM)pompelmo Wrote: Do you realize we got similar production in the same game from another player for 13 million$ less? And Burke is better off the dribble. 4 inches of additional length shouldn't cost that much. 

I am all for keeping Tim as the sixth man, but for not more than 10 million$/year. JRich should fill his previous role as Tim is not more than a spot up shooter as a scorer anyway.

There is no way that THJ signs for less than 10million. Burke had his 2nd 10+ pts game today.
THJ did a lot more than just spot up today and actually created a lot for himself.
I really think that people take his shooting for granted. Last season he was one of nine guys in the league with more than 7 3PA on 38+ %. This year he is one of 13 guys but based on his performance I could go up to 8 3PA and 40+ %. Making him one of five guys. The others are McCollum, Irving, George and VanVleet.
That´s not something a random guard/wing can replace.
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#53
(01-09-2021, 11:23 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don’t like the combo of Luka, Richardson and Hardaway. If THJ is ok with coming off of the bench and keeps playing this well, I’m all about keeping him.

I think the combo is fine in certain matchups. It's certainly not the starting lineup you want though. No idea if THJ is willing to come off the bench long term, but I sure hope he is.

(01-09-2021, 11:30 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: An extension for THJ would be a big overpay. Better to either trade him or bet that you are going to get a team friendly deal in the summer. If he has a great season tho then someone will overpay. That's why I'd still rather trade him if given the chance.

It depends what the $ number is, doesn't it? If they attempt to trade him and the other team values him purely for his expiring contract, that means he is no different than Johnson. If they like THJ the player and want to keep him around, the fact that he is expiring hurts his value.


#54
With a thin upcoming FA market, extending THJ isn't a bad idea IMHO.  Just think back on who we had in that role before.  Wes Matthews, Harrison Barnes, Chandler Parsons, and old Vince Carter.  With THJ we finally got someone better or at least the best fit with our team than those guys after all those post-championship years, and it's ridiculous that people want to let him walk.  I don't want to go back to when we had to scrounge up for some bargain / bottom-of-the-barrel players anymore.

If THJ doesn't work out long term, then at least that's an asset to use in trade.
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#55
(01-09-2021, 11:29 PM)pompelmo Wrote: I am all for keeping Tim as the sixth man, but for not more than 10 million$/year. JRich should fill his previous role as Tim is not more than a spot up shooter as a scorer anyway.

What is the 10M number based on? 
Players of similar caliber,  like Gallinari, Bertans etc got twice this number, for me it is safe to assume his fair market value will be closer to that number than it to 10M.
And JRich isn't as good as spot up shooter, that alone makes THJ very valuable and essential part of this team success
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#56
(01-10-2021, 02:29 AM)khaled1987 Wrote: What is the 10M number based on? 
Players of similar caliber,  like Gallinari, Bertans etc got twice this number, for me it is safe to assume his fair market value will be closer to that number than it to 10M.
And JRich isn't as good as spot up shooter, that alone makes THJ very valuable and essential part of this team success

I thought of a number slightly over the full MLE to keep other teams with the MLE off of him. Of course if he can repeat last season's success, going up to 11-12 would not hurt much.

As for similar caliber players getting double that amount, certain factors affected that, beginning with those players being similar caliber somewhat dubious.

While Gallo and Tim have almost identical 3PT shooting numbers (C&S, PU; WO, O, T) both in volume and efficiency, Gallo is also a 6'10'' guy who can put the ball to the floor and go to the rim, drawing fouls (7.9 FTA compared to 4.2 from Tim per 100 poss, hitting almost 90% of them) and collecting rebounds. Besides, Atlanta pays that money because they have to reach the salary floor one way or another, and they may have wanted some veteran presence in the locker room.

Washington didn't have cap room, so they were not going to be able to replace Bertans if they had let him go. He signed a contract starting at 15 million$/year, which is considered an overpay by the most. And Bertans is better as a shooter! He shot 42.4% on 1.5 more attempts compared to Tim's 40.1%, more importantly he hit 47.7% on 2.1 wide open attempts, 41.4% on 4 open attempts and 40.6% on 2.2 tight attempts. Tim's numbers are 46.3%, 39% and 34% for those respectively. Bertans is also 6'10'' and he runs of screens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpS_9OeS-q4

Joe Harris got a deal starting at 16 million$/year and he hit 57.1% of his threes last year (58.8% when wide open). So if the best shooting-only players got those contracts (and they were more valuable to the their incumbent teams because of how salary cap works), slightly above mid-level sounds fair to me. It will ultimately depend on how desperate we are for that shooting.


#57
(01-09-2021, 02:40 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: All I am saying is that Rich is better than THJ which is obvious. Second is that THJ is a player we neesld to upgrade at the TDL or summer. That's it. I don't hate THJ, I am not in love with his game. Hopefully he can step up now.

I don't see it. Who would this upgrade be?
Are there better players? Sure. But his fit is just so seemless. He is the flamethrower on the court and a leader and exemple off. 

Is he streaky? Hell yeah. 
Is this a problem? I don't know.
Mathematically it will win as many games as it looses. 

Being streaky adds to the spacing pull.
If I am the opposing coach I would do more to keep him quite than to stop Luka. Luka will just bully you no matter what, but if THJ goes Nova he will hit anything from everywere. And Luka will get him the ball in a pocket. 

The same is for Burke on a lesser level.


#58
(01-10-2021, 03:51 AM)pompelmo Wrote: I thought of a number slightly over the full MLE to keep other teams with the MLE off of him. Of course if he can repeat last season's success, going up to 11-12 would not hurt much.

As for similar caliber players getting double that amount, certain factors affected that, beginning with those players being similar caliber somewhat dubious.

While Gallo and Tim have almost identical 3PT shooting numbers (C&S, PU; WO, O, T) both in volume and efficiency, Gallo is also a 6'10'' guy who can put the ball to the floor and go to the rim, drawing fouls (7.9 FTA compared to 4.2 from Tim per 100 poss, hitting almost 90% of them) and collecting rebounds. Besides, Atlanta pays that money because they have to reach the salary floor one way or another, and they may have wanted some veteran presence in the locker room.

Washington didn't have cap room, so they were not going to be able to replace Bertans if they had let him go. He signed a contract starting at 15 million$/year, which is considered an overpay by the most. And Bertans is better as a shooter! He shot 42.4% on 1.5 more attempts compared to Tim's 40.1%, more importantly he hit 47.7% on 2.1 wide open attempts, 41.4% on 4 open attempts and 40.6% on 2.2 tight attempts. Tim's numbers are 46.3%, 39% and 34% for those respectively. Bertans is also 6'10'' and he runs of screens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpS_9OeS-q4

Joe Harris got a deal starting at 16 million$/year and he hit 57.1% of his threes last year (58.8% when wide open). So if the best shooting-only players got those contracts (and they were more valuable to the their incumbent teams because of how salary cap works), slightly above mid-level sounds fair to me. It will ultimately depend on how desperate we are for that shooting.

No players are identical obviously. But who is close to THJ who get close to MLE?

We won't have cap space to get someone else better unless Oladipo or Kawhi wants to come here.
Otherwise, we are looking for a market with ton of teams having cap space and very few players who are good enough to get paid.
I honestly will be shocked if THJ wasn't paid better than JRich, his skills right now is more valuable in this league.


#59
(01-10-2021, 04:11 AM)khaled1987 Wrote: No players are identical obviously. But who is close to THJ who get close to MLE?

We won't have cap space to get someone else better unless Oladipo or Kawhi wants to come here.
Otherwise, we are looking for a market with ton of teams having cap space and very few players who are good enough to get paid.
I honestly will be shocked if THJ wasn't paid better than JRich, his skills right now is more valuable in this league.

While I don't think he'll return to Texas, I do see Kawhi bolting.   /plan powder sized pipe dream

Tim is tough and I have no idea what to pay him.  You have games like tonight or against Houston where he looks like a world beater and then performances like Chicago where he looks like the guy the Knicks were trying to dump.   At least when he struggled in Denver, Carlisle gave him less minutes as he tends to try do much when his offense is struggling and takes ill advised shots.  And in the games he does struggle, he doesn't give you a lot else.  On the plus side, he's a great locker room guy and wants to be a Maverick (which we should never underappreciate).  I think he also knows that this is best place for him.  If some team wants elevate him to the 1st or 2nd option and give him a crazy contract and he wants to accept it, you wish him good luck.  I think that team will regret that decision as quickly as the Knicks did or the Mavs did with Parsons or Barnes.  

I think I'd be fine with a Marcus Smart/Will Barton sized contract.  But if he wants something nearing what he's making now, I'll try to approximate his skillset for a much lower cost player.
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#60
(01-10-2021, 04:11 AM)khaled1987 Wrote: No players are identical obviously. But who is close to THJ who get close to MLE?

JJ Redick never earned more than the MLE before Philly gave him this huge one year deal. And a one year deal is an expiring contract that doesn't cripple you rest of the way. He then got 25 million$ for two years.

He hit 45.4% of 6.6 threes per game last year, 57.7% on WO attempts, 41.7% on 2.5 open attempts, and 40.4% on 2.3 tightly contested attempts in 26.4 minutes per game.

Much more reliable and better shooter than Tim.  

I get that there will be a lot of money and not many players to go for so he might get overpaid. I am not sure that we are the ones who has to overpay him, though.  I'd rather have KP bomb from the outside and Luka work inside as primary options, then JRich, Maxi and Dorian are good enough as scarecrows on offense and far superior on defense. That leaves Tim the sixth man role. 20 million$ is Fred van Vleet, Malcolm Brogdon money.

Obviously we don't agree on the value of JRich's contribution to the team.


  


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