Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Thank You...
#1
...for voting!

The rest of the civilized world


#2
It isn't clear to me that the U.S. will remain a part of the "civilized" world. I'm not sure if Trump's antics are 1) the tantrum of a spoiled brat, 2) a non-transparent fund raising effort where supporters think they're helping expose voter fraud but are actually helping Trump with debt and helping him set up a PAC through which he can attempt to run the Republican party after he leaves office, or 3) the initial stages of a coup attempt.

Regardless of his intent, he has somehow deceived (what feels like) half the country. The whole sale belief I'm seeing, or at least hesitance to disbelieve, his fiction is scary. And I don't really get scared by politics.

I'm waiting to see if he's a selfish childish brat or a usurper. And I'm waiting to see whether democracy can continue in the U.S when such a large portion of our country can be sold a flat earth level conspiracy theory. If Trump can deceive this many what happens when the next, more competent deceiver shows up?


#3
(11-15-2020, 12:03 PM)fifteenth Wrote: It isn't clear to me that the U.S. will remain a part of the  "civilized" world. I'm not sure if Trump's antics are 1) the tantrum of a spoiled brat, 2) a non-transparent fund raising effort where supporters think they're helping expose voter fraud but are actually helping Trump with debt and helping him set up a PAC through which he can attempt to run the Republican party after he leaves office, or 3) the initial stages of a coup attempt.

Regardless of his intent, he has somehow deceived (what feels like) half the country. The whole sale belief I'm seeing, or at least hesitance to disbelieve, his fiction is scary. And I don't really get scared by politics.

I'm waiting to see if he's a selfish childish brat or a usurper. And I'm waiting to see whether democracy can continue in the U.S when such a large portion of our country can be sold a flat earth level conspiracy theory. If Trump can deceive this many what happens when the next, more competent deceiver shows up?
Can I get a name of a politician that is not trying to deceive the American people?
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#4
(11-17-2020, 05:04 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Can I get a name of a politician that is not trying to deceive the American people?


I don't believe they're all decievers, but even if they were, that's not justification for any one of them to be. We're governed by "we the people". And I'm of the opinion that our leaders should be held accountable by "we the people", not just for fighting for policies that we like, but for attempting to govern and lead justly. It may be difficult to hold them accountable at times, but we should at least try. Trump is flat out subverting democracy for either his own gain, or something worse. If we blow things like this off because "they all do it" (which they don't all do what he's doing since what he's doing is inprecdented un the U.S.), then we've ignored our responsibility as "we the people", and at some point, the existance of a democracy will get blown off as well. 

Fortunately he's not quite powerful enough to pull off a coup. And he may not even want to. It appears he may be fundraising (how lame!). But the fact that such a large portion of the population can be decieved by claims devoid of evidence makes me wonder what's going to happen when a more charismatic and talented leader comes along who decides he isn't quite ready to give up his power.
[-] The following 1 user Likes fifteenth's post:
  • Jannemann2


#5
(11-19-2020, 06:54 PM)fifteenth Wrote: But the fact that such a large portion of the population can be decieved by claims devoid of evidence makes me wonder what's going to happen when a more charismatic and talented leader comes along who decides he isn't quite ready to give up his power.
This is the point I'm making. Both sides are deceiving very large portions of the American people into thinking the other side is the devil. This can only end in bad if "We the people" don't stop them from deceiving us all...ALL THE TIME!!!
[-] The following 2 users Like ItsGoTime's post:
  • fifteenth, khaled1987
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#6
1.  What happened yesterday was a disgrace.  Its an embarrassment to Republicans.
2.  You cannot condemn yesterdays riots on capitol hill and support the riots in Seattle, Portland, NYC etc.  I heard an announcer on ESPN broadcast try to justify BLM riots in the middle of the game and turned my TV off.  
3.  Everyone believes their cause is important and just and it may well be, but when mobs break into violence, that's where my support ends.
[-] The following 1 user Likes haveitall's post:
  • ItsGoTime


#7
(01-07-2021, 01:56 PM)haveitall Wrote: 1.  What happened yesterday was a disgrace.  Its an embarrassment to Republicans.
2.  You cannot condemn yesterdays riots on capitol hill and support the riots in Seattle, Portland, NYC etc.  I heard an announcer on ESPN broadcast try to justify BLM riots in the middle of the game and turned my TV off.  
3.  Everyone believes their cause is important and just and it may well be, but when mobs break into violence, that's where my support ends.

1. I agree that it was a disgrace. Even beyond disgraceful really. I don't think any of us actually want to live to see a successful coup.

2. I don't like the violence at the capitol or the violence last summer, either one. Neither should be supported. But the incidents are different. Storming the capitol is definitely a different animal. And storming the capitol as the overflow of a President caused hysteria over conspiracy theories is a different animal. 

Also, BLM organizes protests and violence has broken out at some or many of the protests because of the level of frustration and anger over centuries of racism. Maybe That violence isn't justified at all in my mind, but it's based on real hurt. The violence at the capital was done by folks who aren't oppressed or suffering, but who are afraid they're losing their hold and control over the country, got deceived by a con man because he spoke their language, and bought a bunch of conspiracy theories.
[-] The following 1 user Likes fifteenth's post:
  • Jannemann2


#8
(01-14-2021, 02:03 PM)fifteenth Wrote: But the incidents are different. Storming the capitol is definitely a different animal. And storming the capitol as the overflow of a President caused hysteria over conspiracy theories is a different animal. 
I don't see how you can say the incidents are different. I have heard a few people who wanted to go to the capitol in peaceful protest before this all happened. A cousin had a plane ticket to go, but unfortunately died in a freak accident at work before he had a chance. Just like the BLM protests, there were those who went for one reason, and others went for another.

Violence is violence, doesn't matter what the reason for it is. No one should get a free pass for any reason on that, regardless of how apologetic some are because of what others have done to that group. If some kind of violence is acted on any of us (extreme or not), I'd suspect they'd want justice served. We can all turn the other cheek and forgive, the Government shouldn't.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#9
(01-14-2021, 02:32 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Violence is violence, doesn't matter what the reason for it is. No one should get a free pass for any reason on that, regardless of how apologetic some are because of what others have done to that group. If some kind of violence is acted on any of us (extreme or not), I'd suspect they'd want justice served. We can all turn the other cheek and forgive, the Government shouldn't.


Violence is violence? I doubt you believe this. Torture and murder are prosecuted differently from assault. Homicide is prosecuted differently than manslaughter. And for good reason! I don't give the torturer, murderer or assailant a pass. And I'm not giving rioters from last summer or folks that attacked the capitol a pass. Both are wrong. But they are different. No doubt about that.
[-] The following 1 user Likes fifteenth's post:
  • Jannemann2


#10
(01-14-2021, 03:17 PM)fifteenth Wrote: Torture and murder are prosecuted differently from assault. Homicide is prosecuted differently than manslaughter.
You're talking about prosecution, that's what I addressed in the end by saying "the Government should not" (turn the other cheek and forgive). 
(01-14-2021, 03:17 PM)fifteenth Wrote: And I'm not giving rioters from last summer or folks that attacked the capitol a pass. Both are wrong. But they are different. No doubt about that.

This statement bothers me. You say both are wrong, but then you're arguing that one is more justifiable than the other. That to me, says while you're saying you're not giving the 1 a pass, you're really giving them a pass because, well, it's not soooooooo bad.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#11
(01-14-2021, 05:31 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: You're talking about prosecution, that's what I addressed in the end by saying "the Government should not" (turn the other cheek and forgive). 

This statement bothers me. You say both are wrong, but then you're arguing that one is more justifiable than the other. That to me, says while you're saying you're not giving the 1 a pass, you're really giving them a pass because, well, it's not soooooooo bad.

I don't know what your first comment means. Honestly.

Regarding the second, I never said either was justifiable. I don't think either is justifiable. I'm saying they're different.

The capitol attack was incited by the President's conspiracy theories along with other conspiracy theories (that the President has encouraged) like QAnon that pieces of our country have swallowed. The capitol attack was a direct threat on the existance of our democracy. I'm comfortable in saying that treason and insurrection are not the same thing as riots that boil over from anger and hopelessness that come from hundreds of years of opression and violence.

The two scenarios are just flat out different. Both wrong, and I'm not justifying either. But they both have causes. One is caused by a group of poeple being oppressed. One is caused by a President of the United States who attempted a non-violent coup with his voter conspiricy theories, and then when that failed, rilled up an angry mob that he had created and then sent them to the capitol. 

I'm sure I can't find any other ways to clarify. If I'm not making sense, I apologize, pal. That's what I got.


#12
(01-14-2021, 05:54 PM)fifteenth Wrote: I don't know what your first comment means. Honestly.
Prosecution is done in the court of law, which is upholding the law of the government, right?
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#13
(01-14-2021, 09:28 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Prosecution is done in the court of law, which is upholding the law of the government, right?

Yes, for sure, I'm with you on that. I was just using that as an example of different evils being different in severity and impact and deserving of different levels of justice.


#14
We’re observers from the outside commenting on events that happened in other places other than our backyard or in our home for that matter. I’m sure the people that were attacked in either of those idiotic violent acts in both cases would not share your ability to make one less justifiable than the other.

Regardless of what a court of law or the government would rule about it.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#15
(01-15-2021, 02:39 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: We’re observers from the outside commenting on events that happened in other places other than our backyard or in our home for that matter. I’m sure the people that were attacked in either of those idiotic violent acts in both cases would not share your ability to make one less justifiable than the other.

Regardless of what a court of law or the government would rule about it.

I'm not saying either is at all justifiable. Degrees of evil is not a new concept. It's ancient. I didn't come up with it.


#16
(01-15-2021, 05:14 PM)fifteenth Wrote: I'm not saying either is at all justifiable. Degrees of evil is not a new concept. It's ancient. I didn't come up with it.
I think maybe where the disconnect is is where you're trying to talk about the cause of the protests and I'm talking about the evil that happened from those good intentions. The cause is a separate issue from the violent acts in my mind, and the violent acts were no worse in either instance. People were beaten in both cases, that's why I said violence is violence, in relation to eachother, not the cause that was happening around them.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#17
(01-15-2021, 05:53 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I think maybe where the disconnect is is where you're trying to talk about the cause of the protests and I'm talking about the evil that happened from those good intentions. The cause is a separate issue from the violent acts in my mind, and the violent acts were no worse in either instance. People were beaten in both cases, that's why I said violence is violence, in relation to eachother, not the cause that was happening around them.

OK, I understand. That's the disconnect. I actually think the cause and/or intentions of the perpetrators matters much.


#18
(11-15-2020, 12:03 PM)fifteenth Wrote: It isn't clear to me that the U.S. will remain a part of the  "civilized" world. I'm not sure if Trump's antics are 1) the tantrum of a spoiled brat, 2) a non-transparent fund raising effort where supporters think they're helping expose voter fraud but are actually helping Trump with debt and helping him set up a PAC through which he can attempt to run the Republican party after he leaves office, or 3) the initial stages of a coup attempt.

Regardless of his intent, he has somehow deceived (what feels like) half the country. The whole sale belief I'm seeing, or at least hesitance to disbelieve, his fiction is scary. And I don't really get scared by politics.

I'm waiting to see if he's a selfish childish brat or a usurper. And I'm waiting to see whether democracy can continue in the U.S when such a large portion of our country can be sold a flat earth level conspiracy theory. If Trump can deceive this many what happens when the next, more competent deceiver shows up?

Just curious, have you examined very much of what is thought to be evidence by what feels like that other half of the country 
Quote:he has somehow deceived (what feels like) half the country.


#19
(01-17-2021, 01:09 PM)Dahlsim Wrote: Just curious, have you examined very much of what is thought to be evidence by what feels like that other half of the country 


I've followed what the judges have said about the evidence
[-] The following 1 user Likes fifteenth's post:
  • Dahlsim


#20
(01-17-2021, 06:44 PM)fifteenth Wrote: I've followed what the judges have said about the evidence

Similar to the supreme court, evidence was actually not examined pretty much across the board. 
Cases were dismissed and not taken to trial for various reasons having nothing to do with alleged evidence much of which would require trials to investigate.   

Without trials, public trials and investigation, how could anything at all definitive be said about evidence?


  


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

Thank You...00