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The future of center play in the NBA
#21
They need to make the ball bigger or the basket smaller to bring back center play.  Given how well guys shoot the 3 it's just not efficient to dump the ball into a center unless they shoot 65 percent from the floor, never miss a free throw, and never turn the ball over on the entry pass, which is dependent on your point guard as well.
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#22
(09-18-2020, 11:53 AM)Benskix2 Wrote: They need to make the ball bigger or the basket smaller to bring back center play.  Given how well guys shoot the 3 it's just not efficient to dump the ball into a center unless they shoot 65 percent from the floor, never miss a free throw, and never turn the ball over on the entry pass, which is dependent on your point guard as well.

I recently listened to a pod where Daryl Morey (who I admit might be a bit too reliant on analytics, but is undeniably a leading professional in the basketball business and totally immersed in the sport) laid out all the issues they had to go through in order to make the team work with Yao Ming. 

Among the points made that I think fans take for granted is that to play through Yao, they had to chase free agents and make trades for players who were proficient at the entry pass, and that there were surprisingly few competent at that skill in the league. Basically, you had to get 2-3 of them and then somehow "make them work" regardless of what weaknesses they brought with them. It made team building more difficult. 

There were other things discussed, but that one really stuck out to me. There were players whose entire careers were extended simply because they understood how to throw the ball into the post, and I just don't think the average fan understands how difficult that can be against a good defense (not against the Shawn Bradley/Don Nelson era Mavs, who never stopped anyone from posting up, ever). 

Ultimately, the conclusion made was that NOT having Yao Ming around would have been exponentially better for the team, as it would've resulted in a much better version of Tracy McGrady's career (giving him space to create by not allowing the lane to be clogged 24/7) and (in the opinion of both Morey and Simmons) at least one Houston championship. 

I'm not saying that last opinion is fact, and I'm sure some disagree, but what I am saying is that Yao Ming was a GREAT player (on a totally different level than Boban) playing in an era where teams were far less equipped to take advantage of his weaknesses, and some great basketball minds have since come to the conclusion that running their offense through HIM was a dead end strategy. I think that's fascinating.
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#23
(09-18-2020, 11:53 AM)Benskix2 Wrote: They need to make the ball bigger or the basket smaller to bring back center play.  Given how well guys shoot the 3 it's just not efficient to dump the ball into a center unless they shoot 65 percent from the floor, never miss a free throw, and never turn the ball over on the entry pass, which is dependent on your point guard as well.


Or just allow defenders a bit more contact, making offense harder. Than the percentages would also drop and closer to basket shots might become more valuable


#24
(09-18-2020, 10:11 AM)KillerLeft Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 09:03 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: So you’re saying Bill Russell is the new prototypical center?  Smile

I don't think so. I mean, maybe, because while I'm familiar with the man's accomplishments, I haven't actually been able to see him play much. Not quite old enough. 

Could he play smothering defense on the perimeter (I guess there wasn't a 3 point line when he played) and then recover to affect a shot into the paint on the same play? 

Could he face the basket (triple threat position) from anywhere on the court and put pressure on the defense by passing, shooting or driving? 

My understanding is that he could do NEITHER of those things, but again, I could be wrong, because he was before my time.

I know that he was a winner, and within the game as it was played at the time, he contributed to winning basketball in much wider variety of ways than other centers did, so in a way, that will always be the prototypical center.
He could do all that. While I was born after his playing days, his legend was still being told through small story books that my parents used to buy for us to read during church services so we would keep quiet. I was a Wilt fan through those books, and didn't want to hear how good Bill was because of it, but rest assured, he could do all those things.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#25
@ItsGoTime so you're telling me that Bill Russell could FACE THE BASKET, from 20 feet away, allowing him full view of the entire court, and that the defense would view him as a threat to shoot it or drive it from there, and that they couldn't sag off into the paint?

I can take your word for everything else, but I feel like if that were the case, he'd be remembered much differently as an offensive player.


#26
(09-18-2020, 12:52 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @ItsGoTime so you're telling me that Bill Russell could FACE THE BASKET, from 20 feet away, allowing him full view of the entire court, and that the defense would view him as a threat to shoot it or drive it from there, and that they couldn't sag off into the paint?

I can take your word for everything else, but I feel like if that were the case, he'd be remembered much differently as an offensive player.

Maybe not shoot but absolutely drive. Bill Russell would have a legit case for most athletic center of all time if it wasn´t for his rival Wilt. He was build like Giannis and ranked among the 10 best high jumpers in the entire world. Also was a world class sprinter. I don´t think any current player could match his PB. And that´s not even his biggest strength. He was a basketball savant. Be it as a defender or passer.
He also played in a different era with different rules, worse spacing, more physical contact and less analytics. Give him todays spacing and rules and he could probably do a lot more damage on offense.
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#27
(09-18-2020, 12:52 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @ItsGoTime so you're telling me that Bill Russell could FACE THE BASKET, from 20 feet away, allowing him full view of the entire court, and that the defense would view him as a threat to shoot it or drive it from there, and that they couldn't sag off into the paint?

I can take your word for everything else, but I feel like if that were the case, he'd be remembered much differently as an offensive player.
He was a thinking man's offensive player, crafty and like DFS1998 said athletic as all get out, ahead of his time (Wilt was just as athletic and dominant, he just wasn't as crafty and smart as Bill was, probably from being so cocky/confident). Bill, with today's upbringing would have come out of College as a top 5 pick and made the teams that picked ahead of him rue the day much like those teams that passed on Luka.
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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#28
Photo 
(09-18-2020, 01:10 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Maybe not shoot but absolutely drive. Bill Russell would have a legit case for most athletic center of all time if it wasn´t for his rival Wilt. He was build like Giannis and ranked among the 10 best high jumpers in the entire world. Also was a world class sprinter. I don´t think any current player could match his PB. And that´s not even his biggest strength. He was a basketball savant. Be it as a defender or passer.
He also played in a different era with different rules, worse spacing, more physical contact and less analytics. Give him todays spacing and rules and he could probably do a lot more damage on offense.

http://www.sharegif.com/wp-content/uploa...osling.gif

Wow, ok then! Thanks for the schooling!

Just watched two highlight clips of Russell. Unfortunately, it was a lot of rebounding and put back dunks, mixed with some running hooks, all skills I have long assumed he possessed. I've also heard for years that he basically invented the concept that an outlet pass could change the game, and what I saw today confirmed that. He was at least as good at those as Jokic. Obviously a super smart player. 

I didn't see any half court drives, but that doesn't mean he didn't do that, or that he couldn't have. What I DID notice is that he was ABSOLUTELY faster and quicker than I had imagined, and I was shocked to see quite a few instances where he took the ball and LED the break, either going coast to coast or making an incredibly good read and pass en route. This is one of the rare abilities Bam and Jokic have that's impacting the playoff results right in front of our eyes.

After deliberation, I have decided that yes, Bill Russell is still worthy of being called one of the possible winning "prototypical centers" @ItsGoTime. Dude could absolutely have played in this era with very little alteration to his game. Thanks for your thoughtful and meaningful contribution to this conversation.
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#29
Do we need to get a summer, err, uh, fall Flat Earth vs Round Earth Debate thread up and running?


#30
(09-18-2020, 11:34 AM)KillerLeft Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 10:12 AM)Dahlsim Wrote: My point is, and maybe you just don't get it, he SHOULD be used and he would be VERY effective in the 'SPURTS' to use your word that he is most effective in. 


My argument is about what those spurts should be, could be and when consensus 'box thinkers' are NOT maximizing his skills and talent. 
...

Sigh.  Blush   Ok. You're saying some reasonable things, but in the very condescending manner that you're accusing me of, nevertheless. 
Quote:You're saying that down the stretch in a big game, you'd view that as a spurt where not only should Boban play more often, but that the offense should literally be run through him, and to support this you continuously point out that this strategy would virtually guarantee high percentage shots. 

Some of that true, but missing the bigger point entirely.  

1) Down the stretch of a big game is just a subset of the larger case. As you said you 'skim my stuff at best since it's "needlessly long" so its no wonder you fail to express it well.  
So let me try to summarize this better without being needlessly long.  

Sometimes, when you hit stretches of the games, runs, where your primary modern NBA offense isn't scoring like it you need it to, to hold on to a lead, you could leverage high % inside offensive talent to get high % scoring on the board and hold on to your lead. 

Quote:You're saying that this is even more desirable in situations where the Mavs have a lead. 

When you have a lead, the team that is behind has to do TWO things right?  They have to score but they also have to stop you from scoring.  Is that not correct?  If the time on the clock is in your favor then they have to both score AND stop you in a shorter amount of time.  That means your DEFENSE is less critical.  Get it? 
I don't think it requires a Mensa card to get that, and mine is expired anyway.  Tongue

It's about using him and smart spurts and by the way, pay attention please if you quote me, its not just POST offense.  PnR with Luka is deadly with Boban.  Boban rolling to rim with a smart guard is deadly. He also has a good mid range shot and a very solid free throw. He's also a very good passer, according to Greg Popovich and our own eyes if you pay attention. 

Quote:You also seem to suggest often that "analytics" are somehow to blame for coaches and fans not acknowledging this concept that only Mensa card carrying Dahlism can see from his vantage point, way, way out of the box.  


1) If you followed my posting history on this subject, which you don't because it's needlessly long and you just skim it at best, you would know that I've posted and linked to many other people's post about this topic for a long time, going back to the old forum.  Not just about Boban, but about the 5 position and its evolution.  Its a topic I find interesting for various reasons.  Other topics I read about but I don't need to post about everything nor do I want to take the time.  There are fine poster out here on a range of NBA topics (and others). 
So yes, I post about the topics I feel compelled to post about.  The rest I read, or as you say 'skim'. Is there a rule against that?  

2) I speculate about why Carlisle might do what he does, like anyone else.  Again, if you followed my post history, on the old forum and in this one you'll find that I'm far from the only one out there that question Rick Carlisle in this particular area. It really blew up with his comment about Post Play being dead but its much more than that.  Several of the centers that passed through Dallas had problems but they try to be good soldiers. 

Not long ago Javale McGee was a Maverick, passed through, had a few good games but got benched a lot no matter how he played. Poster out here assuming whatever Carlisle done had to be perfectly right, bashed McGee if anyone brought up his sporadic usage.  
He left Dallas and went on to win, and really contribute to not one NBA championship but TWO in Golden State.  Now he's contributing on Lebron's Lakers (Lebron wanted him) and in the running for a third ring. 

In Rick Carlisle's system he was a non-fitting piece.  

I already posted in my 1 advantage against the Clippers the Mavericks would squander prediction thread about the remarks made about using Boban by guys like Shaq and the Inside the NBA crew, coaches like Popovich and Stan Van Gundy.  I had a thread on the old forum which included Doc Rivers comments about the give and take of using Boban and how he thought he could often get more offense than he might lose on defense.  Some depends on IF the other team is hitting.  I don't if those people hold Mensa cards by the way. 

If you pay attention to the commentary during Mavs games numerous times even Derek Harper and other commentators have hinted at "why isn't this guy getting used more"?   If you listen to Boban's response when asked about his minutes he has strongly questioned but of course you can dismiss that because he wants to play.  

Point is, you're quite wrong, it's not just Dahlsim on the forum. I might go into more depth however it makes my posts needlessly long.  Wink  

I'd just say this about the defense. I wish he was more aggressive on defense at the rim, but many of the complaints about his defense are far exaggerated.  The Mavericks defense in fact was TURRIBLE in the playoff series without Boban and KP, who was stellar.  Boban's big body obstacle and rebounding helped and if it didn't he couldn't have registered the consistently high +/- in his limited minutes on the floor.  

As for my condescending tone KL, you should go back and follow our post history here.  You came back, I welcomed you.  I had hardly any basketball exchange with you.  
You decided to start throwing your 'flat earth' insult at me instead of engaging my points.  I didn't even respond.  That's childishness.  So yeah, eventually you might notice my responses are in like kind to your attitude toward me.  And yes, I like emoticons. They are supplied by the board itself right?  If there is an unspoken taste limit on their usage, well, its unspoken so ...  Cool


#31
@Dahlsim

The above is more of the same. I no longer have the life force to wade through your particular brand of crazy. You are free to disagree with anything anyone writes here, of course, but you do it in a way that makes me long for a shorter life. 

It's possible that I've been unintentionally condescending to others in the past (I hope not), but for the most part I enjoy engaging in debates with people who think differently. It's the entire point of places like this, after all. 

In this case, I've been as condescending towards you as I feel I can be without making others uncomfortable. This is by design, as literally everything I've ever read from you treats others like they're stupid. I find that ironic, but not in an enjoyable way, unfortunately. The condescension you feel from me is a concerted effort to encourage you to take your tireless stream of crap I'm not interested in reading to some other poster.

Maybe others like your "Ringsarethething" impression, but I don't. Please engage with them, not me.


#32
(09-18-2020, 04:39 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @Dahlsim... 

and bless you too my friend.  Wink


#33
@ItsGoTime and @dirkfansince1998, would you also put Wilt on that Russell level, then? What about Kareem? I saw him play quite a bit when younger, but I wasn't ready to fully appreciate it at that point.


#34
(09-18-2020, 03:44 PM)fifteenth Wrote: Do we need to get a summer, err, uh, fall Flat Earth vs Round Earth Debate thread up and running?

First thought. Hell yes. The peak of the old board was without a doubt the Luka is a satanist thread. Pure comedy for posters without any strong feelings about science or religion.
Second thought. In the current political climate any non basketball related topic seems to trigger some people. Wouldn´t be suprised if the same happens to a potential flat earth thread. Can already imagine a derailed discussion. From Flat Earth to other conspiracy theories. To QAnon. Ending with the unavoidable Trump talk.


#35
(09-18-2020, 05:47 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: The peak of the old board was without a doubt the Luka is a satanist thread.

Um...what?

I have no memory of this. Was there a board between db.com and this one that I missed completely?


#36
(09-18-2020, 01:10 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 12:52 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @ItsGoTime so you're telling me that Bill Russell could FACE THE BASKET, from 20 feet away, allowing him full view of the entire court, and that the defense would view him as a threat to shoot it or drive it from there, and that they couldn't sag off into the paint?

I can take your word for everything else, but I feel like if that were the case, he'd be remembered much differently as an offensive player.

Maybe not shoot but absolutely drive. Bill Russell would have a legit case for most athletic center of all time if it wasn´t for his rival Wilt. He was build like Giannis and ranked among the 10 best high jumpers in the entire world. Also was a world class sprinter. I don´t think any current player could match his PB. And that´s not even his biggest strength. He was a basketball savant. Be it as a defender or passer.
He also played in a different era with different rules, worse spacing, more physical contact and less analytics. Give him todays spacing and rules and he could probably do a lot more damage on offense.

 I salute your salute to the great Bill Russell in this contextExclamation 

I add salute to Wilt as well in this same context, a player who many consider perhaps the best or one of the very best overall athletes in history.   This is why it's impossible to say what these former all time greats might do in today's games.  They are all time great.  They could change and morph their games to take advantage of the modern changes as much as they might lose some advantages. 

More Reasons Wilt Was the Greatest Athlete Ever
Quote:Wilt wasn't just a basketball player. There wasn't anything he couldn't do in sports.
Track and Field
At Overbrook High School in West Philadelphia, he was an avid track and field star: He high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches; ran the 440 yards in 49.0 seconds and the 880 yards in 1:58.3; propelled the shot put 53 feet, 4 inches; and broad jumped 22 feet.
In college at the University of Kansas, the 7'1" goliath ran a sub-11-second 100-yard dash and also threw the shot put 56 feet. Despite competing and excelling in both sprinting and throwing, these were not his best events. Chamberlain triple jumped more than 50 feet and successfully won the Big 8 Conference high jumping competition three years in a row
Volleyball
After his basketball career ended, Chamberlain played volleyball in the short-lived International Volleyball Association, was president of this organization, and is enshrined in the IVA Hall of Fame for his contributions. 
... 
He beat the immortal NFL player, Jim Brown, in a race, when he played with the Harlem Globetrotters.
... 
In addition to all these legendary tales, Wilt toured with the Harlem Globetrotters in 1959. He also played polo, tennis, paddle ball, and water skied.
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#37
(09-18-2020, 05:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @ItsGoTime and @dirkfansince1998, would you also put Wilt on that Russell level, then? What about Kareem? I saw him play quite a bit when younger, but I wasn't ready to fully appreciate it at that point.
It's hard to say Wilt couldn't do something when he tells you he's gonna lead the league in assists for a full season and then does it (Oscar Robertson had the most per game, Wilt had the most total for the season). Wilt was pretty Mohammad Ali cocky/confident, and the game became a bit boring for him. I remember an interview at an All Star game shortly before he passed that they asked him if he could hang with these guys if he grew up in this time. He said "I can hang with them now, let me go get my sneakers on" (well, something like that anyway). I can't doubt a guy that scored 100 points in a single game couldn't play with any era of basketball. His confidence with himself didn't make him the ultimate winner though, IMO.
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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."


#38
(09-18-2020, 05:47 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 03:44 PM)fifteenth Wrote: Do we need to get a summer, err, uh, fall Flat Earth vs Round Earth Debate thread up and running?

First thought. Hell yes. The peak of the old board was without a doubt the Luka is a satanist thread. Pure comedy for posters without any strong feelings about science or religion.
Second thought. In the current political climate any non basketball related topic seems to trigger some people. Wouldn´t be suprised if the same happens to a potential flat earth thread. Can already imagine a derailed discussion. From Flat Earth to other conspiracy theories. To QAnon. Ending with the unavoidable Trump talk.

I thoroughly enjoyed that thread. And while there was some comedy, there was  some good content as well!

(09-18-2020, 05:51 PM)KillerLeft Wrote:
(09-18-2020, 05:47 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: The peak of the old board was without a doubt the Luka is a satanist thread.

Um...what?

I have no memory of this. Was there a board between db.com and this one that I missed completely?

I don't remember you being around much when Luka was a rookie, Killer


#39
AROUND WHERE, PAL????


#40
(09-18-2020, 11:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: AROUND WHERE, PAL????

So you never knew about the last iteration of db.com, before Fish took his talents to the ghost of S.I. and Magick rescued us from cyber abyss?

Wow!!

It could still be reached with the dallasbasketball.com address. 

Dudes, was that last iteration 247Sports? I'm forgetting.  It's cause I'm almost 50. Well, two years away anyway.


  


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The future of center play in the NBA00